WoW: Blizzard Gets Gay Rights Warning |
Mellian Feb 7th 2006, 8:10am Uh, first time I hear of this. Well, good that Blizzard learnt from their mistake. Now, I wonder about the guilds base on religion, politics, ethnicity and so on, if there are any and if so did the blanket 'ban' effected them too?
-mellian
-----
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/wow-blizzard-gets-gay-rights-warning-153075.php
February 6, 2006
WoW: Blizzard Gets Gay Rights Warning
On Friday we broke the news that Lambda Legal (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/breaking/gay-rights-group-examining-world-of-warcraft-152461.php) was getting involved in the whole gay rights in World of Warcraft issue. Today we learned that the legal firm has sent Blizzard an official letter questioning their policies. In the letter to Blizzard president Mike Morhaime and Vivendi In-House Counsel, Lambda Legal spells out the foundation for possible litigation in the issue. The attorneys explain how an online world can be considered a place of business and how current anti-discrimination laws would apply. Here it is in a nutshell:
Although Blizzard is well within its rights to insist that players avoid referring to other gamers in an “insulting manner,?Blizzard cannot issue a blanket ban on any mention of sexual orientation or gender identity. Interestingly enough, the letter mentions that Blizzard has already started to cave on this issue, withdrawing their citation against Sara Andrews for alleged violation of WoW harassment policies. According to the letter, an e-mail from “Thor Biafore,?the head of Blizzard’s customer service worldwide, acknowledges that the action taken against Ms. Andrews was based on an “unfortunate interpretation?of Blizzard’s current policies.
The letter ends with this:
In order to avoid any similar incidents in the future, we ask that you inform all of Blizzard’s system administrators that they are not to discipline any players for mentioning or discussing sexual orientation or gender identity in a non-insulting fashion. We also ask that Blizzard confirm that LGBT-friendly guilds are allowed to announce their existence in the same manner as any other guilds. Of course, Lambda Legal would be more than happy to offer any advice we can to assist Blizzard in crafting a nondiscriminatory clarification of the terms of service for W.O.W., or in providing guidance to the administrators enforcing Blizzard’s anti-harassment guidelines. We ask that you respond within thirty days of the date of this letter to avoid the need for further action. Very interesting. It looks like the real world and the virtual one are growing closer together on a daily basis. Prepare to start paying your WoW property taxes any day now.
Hit the jump for the full letter:
Dear Mr. Mohaime and Mr. Rigole,
Lambda Legal is the nation’s oldest and largest organization dedicated to achieving full civil rights for lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, transgender persons, and people living with HIV through impact litigation, education and public policy work. We recently have been in contact with Greg Wu and Sara Andrews, who are customers of Blizzard Entertainment, regarding their concern that certain employees of Blizzard Entertainment have discriminated against World of Warcraft (“W.O.W.? players based on their sexual orientation and/or gender identity.
As we understand it, on January 12, 2006 “Tirauka,?a senior account administrator with Blizzard, issued Ms. Andrews a warning claiming that Ms. Andrews?public announcement of an LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) friendly gaming guild for W.O.W. players violated the W.O.W Harassment Policy. When Ms. Andrews asked how the mere mention of an LGBT-friendly guild could violate the W.O.W. Harassment Policy, Blizzard’s account administrator “Gorido?followed up with correspondence seeming to argue that because other players may choose to harass LGBT players, the mere mention of an LGBT-friendly guild violates the World of Warcraft terms of service.
Subsequent statements to the media made by Blizzard’s representatives seem to confirm that Blizzard’s official position is that LGBT gamers may not mention their sexual orientation or gender identity using the game’s chat functions. Blizzard’s online message boards include a post apparently issued by Blizzard stating, in pertinent part,
To promote a positive game environment for everyone and help prevent such harassment from taking place as best we can, we prohibit mention of topics related to sensitive real-world subjects in open chat within the game, and we do our best to take action whenever we see such topics being broadcast. This includes openly advertising a guild friendly to players based on a particular political, sexual, or religious preference, to list a few examples.
We are very concerned that Blizzard’s policy, as expressed in the foregoing statement, discriminates against LGBT gamers. Although preventing harassment is an admirable goal, a requirement that LGBT people remain invisible and silent is not an acceptable means of reaching that goal.
Mr. Wu is the guild leader of “Stonewall Champions,?the largest LGBT-friendly guild in W.O.W. Ms. Andrews is the guild leader of “Oz,?an LGBT-friendly guild on the Shadow Moon Server. As leaders of LGBT-friendly guilds, Mr. Wu and Ms. Andrews are both very concerned that Blizzard’s policy will hamper the guilds?ability to provide a safe and supportive gaming environment.
We agree that World of Warcraft’s Harassment Policy, which clearly states that players may not refer to the sexual orientation of others in an “insulting manner,?is laudable and legal. Indeed, we applaud Blizzard’s efforts to create a congenial gaming atmosphere where people of all sexual orientations and gender identities can interact without fear of harassment or insult.
Although Blizzard is well within its rights to insist that players avoid referring to other gamers in an “insulting manner,?Blizzard cannot issue a blanket ban on any mention of sexual orientation or gender identity. There is nothing “insulting?about identifying oneself as gay, lesbian or transgender, nor does the announcement of a guild for LGBT gamers constitute “harassment?in any sense of the word. If other players react insultingly to the mere presence of LGBT gamers, then Blizzard should discipline the harassers, not attempt preemptively to silence the potential victims of harassment.
Online environments are public accommodations, subject to regulation as such. Butler v. Adoption Media, L.L.C., 2005 WL 1513142 (N.D.Cal.). Discrimination against LGBT individuals in the provision of public accommodations is clearly prohibited by California law. Id., see also, Cal. Civ. Code ?51 et seq. It has been so for more than fifty years. Stouman v. Reilly, 234 P.2d 969 (Cal. 1951). Insisting that LGBT persons not discuss their sexual orientation or gender identity can constitute discrimination under California law. Erdmann v. Tranquility Inc., 155 F.Supp.2d 1152 (N.D.Cal. 2001) (in which an employee who experienced a hostile environment at his workplace, including being instructed by a supervisor to “keep [his homosexuality] in the closet while he [was] at work,?stated a cause of action for employment discrimination); see also Gay Law Students v. Pacific Telephone & Telegraph, 595 P.2d 592 (1978) (same); Henkle v. Gregory, 150 F.Supp.2d 1067 (D.Nev.2001) (discussing students?right to discuss their sexual orientation at school); Colin v. Orange Unified School District, 83 F.Supp.2d 1135 (C.D.Cal.2000) (addressing students?right to use the word “gay?in the name of their school club).
In the few short years since the advent of multi-user dungeons, the world of online gaming has grown from a niche hobby enjoyed by a small community of enthusiasts to a phenomenon shared by millions. We understand that the rapid growth of the online environment has created challenges for companies like Blizzard, who are striving to ensure a civil and enjoyable experience for a large and diverse body of gamers. We hope that you will realize that silencing LGBT gamers, and requiring that they remain invisible to their fellows within the online gaming world, is not an acceptable means of advancing that end.
We understand that Blizzard has recently withdrawn its citation of Ms. Andrews for allegedly violating World of Warcraft’s harassment policy. An e-mail from “Thor Biafore,?the head of Blizzard’s customer service worldwide, acknowledges that the action taken against Ms. Andrews was based on an “unfortunate interpretation?of Blizzard’s current policies.
In order to avoid any similar incidents in the future, we ask that you inform all of Blizzard’s system administrators that they are not to discipline any players for mentioning or discussing sexual orientation or gender identity in a non-insulting fashion. We also ask that Blizzard confirm that LGBT-friendly guilds are allowed to announce their existence in the same manner as any other guilds. Of course, Lambda Legal would be more than happy to offer any advice we can to assist Blizzard in crafting a nondiscriminatory clarification of the terms of service for W.O.W., or in providing guidance to the administrators enforcing Blizzard’s anti-harassment guidelines. We ask that you respond within thirty days of the date of this letter to avoid the need for further action.
Very truly yours,
Brian Chase
Staff Attorney*
Jennifer C. Pizer
Senior Counsel
* Admitted in FL and LA, not admitted in CA.
SteltekMaster Feb 7th 2006, 8:20am Ah, the icy talons of political correctness are sinking in everywhere, aren't they? Not that I think Blizzard is actually anti-homosexuality, of course, but the tone of this letter is typical of the thought-policing that is perpetrated by such groups.
Entropy Feb 7th 2006, 8:22am Gay guilds on WoW? You are aware that the response most players would have would be "lol fags" right? It's an MMOG...in the Warcraft world for god sakes!
voidlore Feb 7th 2006, 8:36am I have but one response to this whole mess:
LOL World of Warcraft sux! :p
Sorry, my roommate keeps me up at night team-speaking to his guild... I really am starting to despise that game.
Thanatos Feb 7th 2006, 8:44am Jesus Christ Blizzard, grow some fucking balls!
Mellian Feb 7th 2006, 8:54am Gay guilds on WoW? You are aware that the response most players would have would be "lol fags" right? It's an MMOG...in the Warcraft world for god sakes!
Yep and because of Blizzards rules, anyone that says 'lol fags' and make insults to those of such guilds will get warned, banned and so on.
I think the main problem arised when glbt players were having glbt related discussions and then some GM overheard and warned/banned them for it, even thought the discussion were not insulting or negative. Allowing to advertize a guild as 'GLBT-friendly' is bonus. Yet, the key part of that is friendly, meaning such guilds can't discriminate those who are heterosexual.
-mellian
Mellian Feb 7th 2006, 8:59am Jesus Christ Blizzard, grow some fucking balls!
In this issue, they can't, otherwise they will be actively being anti-glbt, especially if they continue following that GM's interpretation and no discussion in regards to sexual orientation and gender identity is not allowed, no matter if it is not insulting. THAT is going to far. Protecting people by having a blancket ban for their own protection is sound more like 1984.
-mellian
Felidae Feb 7th 2006, 9:21am I'm tempted to buy the game now, just so I can start a 'Calvinist friendly' guild.
Henk G.
Golar Feb 7th 2006, 9:39am For fucks sake, don't gay rights campaigners have anything useful to do with themselves? Like get on with their lives?
This is Blizzard's game and their rules. If people don't like it then they can fuck off and stop playing it. I don't see why anyone should be able to argue with them about these issues.
Sindai Feb 7th 2006, 9:50am an e-mail from “Thor Biafore,?
That's the most made-up sounding name I've ever heard.
NTaker Feb 7th 2006, 10:41am You know...I for one don't give three shits what a bunch of gays/queers/fags(or what ever the current accepted term of the day is!!) do...but it is when this BS/PC in your face shit goes on that makes me want to get a good hate on.
This is a game folks...lighten up.I don't play it(due to the fact that I think it is stupid as shit to pay $50 for a game and then $20 a month just to play said game...sheesh)but others are more than happy too and now have to face the whole "imperial hand" thing just cause some people have their undies in a knot.
The fact that Blizzard knuckled under to these queer lawyers just shows that the Freedom of Speach thing is on the way out.
Well it might be there but a bunch of clauses will be added...:rolleyes:
Karamozov Feb 7th 2006, 10:53am Damnit. This si fucking stupid. I agree with the "Don't like it? Too bad!" sentiment.
It is Blizzard's world. And you honestly don't have to advertise being lgbt or anything. In fact, I get pissed at those that feel the need to tell EVERYONE they are or act like they are abused. My buddy is bi and him and I got into an argument one night because he was whining about how his parents and everyone are against him, waaah! I told him to stfu, and that not every hetero person has it easy either. He isn't special. Shut up. (yes, LGBT peple out there, there are emos among you too!)
They don't need to be congregating because they are gay. How does that matter online at all here? If anything, wanting to make "LGBT-friendly guilds allowed to advertise" is actually detrimental in that is further divides people. Go join some random guild. Get to know them, be liked. Tell they you are gay and they will go "Ok, whatever. Now let's go raid."
Damn PC bullshit again. And it comes from both sides of so many issues too! :rage:
Silver Paladin Feb 7th 2006, 11:04am In this issue, they can't, otherwise they will be actively being anti-glbt, especially if they continue following that GM's interpretation and no discussion in regards to sexual orientation and gender identity is not allowed, no matter if it is not insulting. THAT is going to far. Protecting people by having a blancket ban for their own protection is sound more like 1984.
-mellian
Frankly, I think sexual orientation shouldn't exist in a game with a ESRB T rating.
If I run around in game saying "STRAIGHT FRIENDLY GUILD, PST FOR INVITE" I think that would be inappropriate as well.
You're playing a game with 12-13 years olds...dude...when I was 12, I had to get parental permission to take sex ed class! I didn't know what the hell a vagina was and some dude in game is trying to talk about sexual orientation?
Anyways, I think all discussion of sex and/or sexual orientation shouldn't be allowed in WoW.
Thanatos Feb 7th 2006, 11:44am In this issue, they can't, otherwise they will be actively being anti-glbt, especially if they continue following that GM's interpretation and no discussion in regards to sexual orientation and gender identity is not allowed, no matter if it is not insulting. THAT is going to far. Protecting people by having a blancket ban for their own protection is sound more like 1984.
-mellian
George Orwell is doing a turbine spin in his grave from people incorrectly referencing 1984.
Entropy Feb 7th 2006, 12:04pm Yep and because of Blizzards rules, anyone that says 'lol fags' and make insults to those of such guilds will get warned, banned and so on.
-mellian
Good luck pressuring Blizzard to ban 80% of it's player base.
Wolfius Feb 7th 2006, 12:30pm Frankly, I think sexual orientation shouldn't exist in a game with a ESRB T rating.
If I run around in game saying "STRAIGHT FRIENDLY GUILD, PST FOR INVITE" I think that would be inappropriate as well.
Pretty much my own thoughts on this matter.
George Orwell is doing a turbine spin in his grave from people incorrectly referencing 1984.
Really?!
*starts loading the truck up with magnets and copper wire*
Mellian Feb 7th 2006, 12:41pm The fact that Blizzard knuckled under to these queer lawyers just shows that the Freedom of Speach thing is on the way out.
Well it might be there but a bunch of clauses will be added...:rolleyes:
In this issue, freedom of speech is on the GLBT side considering Blizzard was banning ALL discussion of sexual orientation and gender identity no matter if it was not insulting or negative.
Apart from that, I do feel the same about the advertizing as it open a bag of nonos and creates precedence for guilds to advert as muslim, christian, anarchist, fascist, ameican, straight and so on friendly which risk turning things political and create division.
-mellian
Mellian Feb 7th 2006, 12:43pm Good luck pressuring Blizzard to ban 80% of it's player base.
Which will not be the case because 80% of the player base don't go off insulting gays and such left and right.
-mellian
Mellian Feb 7th 2006, 12:47pm Anyways, I think all discussion of sex and/or sexual orientation shouldn't be allowed in WoW.
With that logic, including any hetero/straight references like relationships, being attracted to girls/boys and so on....actually, maybe remove gender from the game and the sexual inuendo dancing, skimpy armor, and such. Yay for conservative PCness. :rolleyes:
-mellian
Silver Paladin Feb 7th 2006, 1:20pm With that logic, including any hetero/straight references like relationships, being attracted to girls/boys and so on....actually, maybe remove gender from the game and the sexual inuendo dancing, skimpy armor, and such. Yay for conservative PCness. :rolleyes:
-mellian
Feel free to petition the GM when those situations arise.
As far as skimpy armor...as long as they cover all the right parts...I don't see how that needs be changed. Besides, players can toss on a shirt and/or tabard to cover more if they wish.
Kosh800 Feb 7th 2006, 2:01pm Blizzard game, Blizzard rules. You say yes each time you log in. You say I agree every time you install or update.
Sexual Orientation has not place in this game or the universe it allows you to access. This is a game rated for kids to play. Sexual orientation is not a subject that should be allowed in a teen rated game simply because you want to exclaim that you are out of the closet. If you makes you feel any better a gay named guild is treated exactly the same as a heterosexual named guild or a racially named guild.
Kosh800 Feb 7th 2006, 2:04pm That's the most made-up sounding name I've ever heard.
Not a made-up name. :p :D
Nameless Feb 7th 2006, 2:09pm Feel free to petition the GM when those situations arise.
As far as skimpy armor...as long as they cover all the right parts...I don't see how that needs be changed. Besides, players can toss on a shirt and/or tabard to cover more if they wish. Much as I hate to agree with here I also HATE the skimpy armor worn by females in these things, but more because it’s militarily stupid and sexist… to men! How come I have to haul around 80 pounds of plate and you get the same protection for half?! Weak! We male fighters demand equal rights now!:mad:
Sexual Orientation has not place in this game or the universe it allows you to access. This is a game rated for kids to play. Sexual orientation is not a subject that should be allowed in a teen rated game simply because you want to exclaim that you are out of the closet. If you makes you feel any better a gay named guild is treated exactly the same as a heterosexual named guild or a racially named guild.Seriously if I can proclaim my gayness in a guild shouldn’t I be able to make a guild proclaiming my like of young boys, bondage, and tentacale porn? Freedom of speech afterall!
Karamozov Feb 7th 2006, 2:12pm Much as I hate to agree with here I also HATE the skimpy armor worn by females in these things, but more because it’s militarily stupid and sexist?to men! How come I have to haul around 80 pounds of plate and you get the same protection for half?! Weak! We male fighters demand equal rights now!:mad:
Seriously if I can proclaim my gayness in a guild shouldn’t I be able to make a guild proclaiming my like of young boys or goats? Freedom of speech afterall!
Just play a female character and be done with it! :p
Tycho Feb 7th 2006, 2:15pm What's next? A lawsuit because WoW incites and encourages inter-business violence?
Nameless Feb 7th 2006, 2:18pm Just play a female character and be done with it! :p Frankly 20 year old white men playing big-busted elves and shit in RPGs frighten me and I refuse to join their perverted ranks. No all my characters are broad shouldered lummoxes that swing around axes bigger then their torsos…
Still I can see why the females might skimp on the armor lacking upper body strength and being so dainty they just can’t take it… poor things.:p They're still damn lucky that the multiversel fantasy Geneva convention prohibits the targeting of exposed flesh on hot female characters though!
Bishop Gantry Feb 7th 2006, 3:04pm What's next? A lawsuit because WoW incites and encourages inter-business violence?
Its a hostile takeover
To the steammobile:p
Mellian Feb 7th 2006, 3:14pm Seriously if I can proclaim my gayness in a guild shouldn’t I be able to make a guild proclaiming my like of young boys, bondage, and tentacale porn? Freedom of speech afterall!
Because it harmful and illegal, x rated, and inappropriate and x rated.
-mellian
Thanatos Feb 7th 2006, 3:19pm inappropriate
Which is a very subjective thing. I'm sure that Nambla believes just as strongly as BGLAD that their activities are in no way innapropriate.
areoborg Feb 7th 2006, 5:08pm Much as I hate to agree with here I also HATE the skimpy armor worn by females in these things, but more because it’s militarily stupid and sexist?to men! How come I have to haul around 80 pounds of plate and you get the same protection for half?! Weak! We male fighters demand equal rights now!:mad:
*pictures a hulking brute in a metal bikini*
MY POOR BRAIN!!!!! }p }p }p }p
Tycho Feb 7th 2006, 5:11pm Which is a very subjective thing. I'm sure that Nambla believes just as strongly as BGLAD that their activities are in no way innapropriate.
I agree with Mellian on this one...a guild of gays is fine, as being gay is not illegal. Proclaiming your love for t3h hawt b0ysecks, and inviting other pedophiles into a guild goes too far, as pedophilia is against the law.
Thanatos Feb 7th 2006, 6:01pm I have no real problem with the Idea of a guild of gay people, I was just pointing out that its hard to gauge content on it its being inappropriate
Alexander Falcorian Feb 7th 2006, 6:11pm lolz @ lawsuit
KlavoHunter Feb 7th 2006, 6:28pm In this issue, they can't, otherwise they will be actively being anti-glbt, especially if they continue following that GM's interpretation and no discussion in regards to sexual orientation and gender identity is not allowed, no matter if it is not insulting. THAT is going to far. Protecting people by having a blancket ban for their own protection is sound more like 1984.
-mellian
Not 1984. Farenheight 451, actually.
Thanatos Feb 7th 2006, 6:40pm Not 1984. Farenheight 451, actually.
Thank You! :)
Nameless Feb 7th 2006, 6:55pm I agree with Mellian on this one...a guild of gays is fine, as being gay is not illegal. Proclaiming your love for t3h hawt b0ysecks, and inviting other pedophiles into a guild goes too far, as pedophilia is against the law.Actually being gay is illegal (at least if you really sleep with other men) techniclly in some areas but even beyond that stuff like bondage, tentacle porn, or furries aren’t illegal, but any guild based around those would get smacked down SO fast it’s not even funny, but whatever just another gay (pun intended) double standard.
Anyway what I really don’t like about people like this is that they have to run around loudly announcing their sexual preferences seemingly just because. Nor do I like that gays seem to be rewarded for doing so. STFU keep it in your pants and in the bedroom twats I don’t fucking care and I don’t want to hear about how you like the buttsecks while I’m playing an RPG and slicing the heads off of orcs. I just don't get why they always need to this I don't feel the need to proclaim my love of being straight in online games so why do these guys need to proclaim their love of being gay constantly. If they where secure in it they'd just do it and not take even the slightest opportunity to point out they’re gay.
LT_Ryguy Feb 7th 2006, 7:04pm Can I still call night elf gankers fags?
Not asking this in an insulting manner, simply in an academic sense. :)
Mellian Feb 7th 2006, 7:21pm I just don't get why they always need to this I don't feel the need to proclaim my love of being straight in online games so why do these guys need to proclaim their love of being gay constantly.
Case is not about running around in WoW and saying they are gay, its case of should not ban them just because they talk about sexual orientation and gender identity in non-insulting way among themselves in WoW, which is what cause this whole problem when a GM did. This case ended also removing the ban on advertizing their guild as GLBT-friendly ingame too, which is not running around their are gay either.
Also, I have seen people in WoW proclaiming their straight love for a girl in WoW before too.
-mellian
MJ12 Commando Feb 8th 2006, 1:30am *pictures a hulking brute in a metal bikini*
MY POOR BRAIN!!!!! }p }p }p }p
Nah. It'd be a giant spiked metal codpiece.
:p
$tormin Feb 8th 2006, 2:19am Still I can see why the females might skimp on the armor lacking upper body strength and being so dainty they just can’t take it?poor things.:p They're still damn lucky that the multiversel fantasy Geneva convention prohibits the targeting of exposed flesh on hot female characters though!
You can keep your war bikinis, a norse chick in chainmail is so much hotter ;7:p
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/4403/sshot2186sg.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sshot2186sg.jpg)
Kosh800 Feb 8th 2006, 3:07am Can I still call night elf gankers fags?
Not asking this in an insulting manner, simply in an academic sense. :)
No. :)
BTW, DAoC sucks :p Damn over powered mids. Nothing like a healing class that can stun, soe stun, instant stuns, instant mezzes, aoe mezzes, normal mezzes ...
God how I'm glad I never went back to Dark Age ... :p
Kosh800 Feb 8th 2006, 3:10am Case is not about running around in WoW and saying they are gay, its case of should not ban them just because they talk about sexual orientation and gender identity in non-insulting way among themselves in WoW, which is what cause this whole problem when a GM did. This case ended also removing the ban on advertizing their guild as GLBT-friendly ingame too, which is not running around their are gay either.
Also, I have seen people in WoW proclaiming their straight love for a girl in WoW before too.
-mellian
You wouldn't have a problem proclaiming your love for some one in-game. Things like, "I love my husband!" when you're male wouldn't violate anything. Saying I like having sex with other men, is.
Each and every report is investigated and treated as unique situations.
.... I mean I think they are ...
yeah.
mutantmagnet Feb 8th 2006, 8:15am Anybody in this thread who says gays should stop advertising themselves so openly with their sexuality should take their heads out of their ass. Try playing a female character especially Alliance non-dwarves. Or try playing on an rpg server which offers more than the occassioal cybersex conversation you didn't want to walk into on the non-rpg servers. Sexuality in many forms is everywhere in wow.
It's ok if you are bothered by homosexuality but don't be so hypocritical to say they can't talk openly about it any way when sex is clearly a part of the gaming community.
Mellian Feb 8th 2006, 8:55am You wouldn't have a problem proclaiming your love for some one in-game. Things like, "I love my husband!" when you're male wouldn't violate anything. Saying I like having sex with other men, is.
WHich is not what they fought Blizzard. It IS possible to talk about sexual orientation and gender identity without sex you know.
Each and every report is investigated and treated as unique situations.
.... I mean I think they are ...
yeah.
They do, just they have to be extra careful in this regard after a GM went to far.
-mellian
Mellian Feb 8th 2006, 9:00am Here is a quote of someone countering my point of possible balkanization in regards to advertizing:
-----
Well, I guess I should comment since it was one of my threads that pushed the debate along significantly, and one of its direct successors that got the quoted Blizzard response -
1. Slippery slope argument. Slippery slope argument is a fallacy as shown here: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#slippery It doesn't follow that because one thing is allowed, other, similar things must be allowed.
2. This is a relatively recent issue (around a month or less old). Before that, Blizzard's ban on advertising guilds for whatever reason did not exist. It still hasn't ever been actually put in the Terms of Use. We can predict that the balkanisation of WoW isn't likely to happen, simply because it didn't in the year+ that no policies against GLBT-etc advertising were in effect.
I think GLBT issue (mainly the G and L part) is somewhat exceptional in that it's something that a lot of people are openly or not so openly discriminatory about, and it's something that comes up unless you're in a guild that has rules to never mention your out-of-game life, ever. If you're even somewhat social it tends to come up, especially if you have a significant other.
Then you've got a choice - most people aren't aware of many gay people, and you'll probably stand out for it. Do you hide your sexuality or not? You can censor yourself to avoid anyone knowing, but that's really missing the point of the game for many, which is to make friends and share the game experience together. On the other hand, if you don't censor yourself you might come under attack from active discrimination or, worse, passive discrimination.
There aren't many other issues that can get you that. The first that comes to mind is being female, and perhaps in that case a special guild is warranted - it's part of why Dancing Fortune is still going after so long. It's not too hard to find a guild with a mature guild master who'll probably form a welcoming guild to female players, though (I just cling to mine because I don't want to see it go).
At any rate, my point is that most other issues aren't as fundamental to you, and not as likely to engender discrimination.
Summary:
- slippery slope argument invalid
- balkanisation of WoW did not happen for the year+ before the invisible policy's institution
Hope that made some sense.
-----
-mellian
$tormin Feb 8th 2006, 2:56pm BTW, DAoC sucks :p Damn over powered mids. Nothing like a healing class that can stun, soe stun, instant stuns, instant mezzes, aoe mezzes, normal mezzes ...
Buy purge and get better support :p
Good lockdown and positioning > Pac Healer
Have all casters atleast 300 units apart so that they are not going to be caught in the radius of AE CC yet are still able to assist each other with stuns, roots and mezzes. Run a nearsighter, make sure everyone knows how to pre-kite and make sure your tanks know when to call for a push or to pull off their target before they get extended.
Run a heavy tank with purge so if you get blanket mezzed, he can purge and hit pbaoe cure mez/stun/root. Run Det 5 tanks so that even the longest CC only lasts a few seconds.
No wonder you didn't last, you didn't use tactics. Things like positioning and prekiting work in WoW too. No Skill, a former DAoC guild, had a vid of them beating 50 level 60's with 10 using extention tactics. (Their host died from that vid being downloaded too much so if any of you happen to have a copy, gimme!)
Kosh800 Feb 9th 2006, 1:14pm WHich is not what they fought Blizzard. It IS possible to talk about sexual orientation and gender identity without sex you know.
Possible? Sure it is. Unfortunately it doesn't belong in the game in any way. Homo or Heterosexual.
They do, just they have to be extra careful in this regard after a GM went to far.
-mellian
How did the GM go too far, exactly? It's called policy.
Kosh800 Feb 9th 2006, 1:19pm No wonder you didn't last, you didn't use tactics. Things like positioning and prekiting work in WoW too. No Skill, a former DAoC guild, had a vid of them beating 50 level 60's with 10 using extention tactics. (Their host died from that vid being downloaded too much so if any of you happen to have a copy, gimme!)
The healer comment was actually just a joke. I played DAoC for damn near 3 years and had an RR9 Scout with an RR6 Sorc (who was mainly a PvE toon anyway). It was fun ... at first. ToA killed it, though.
$tormin Feb 9th 2006, 1:34pm ToA killed it, though.
Agreed. That's why I am playing on the Classic (no ToA) servers now. Even after they made it insanely easy to ToA out a character it just isn't worth it. <shrug>
Brido Feb 9th 2006, 4:20pm I am going to buy the game and make my own guild, and if you are gay you are not invited.
FleetAdmiral Feb 10th 2006, 12:10am If I were Blizzard, I would tell these people to go fly a kite.
The House rules are reasonable and hardly discriminatory as they apply to EVERYONE.
Sexual orientation, skin colour and religious beliefs based clans have no place in online games. Other players don't need to know this.
Mellian Feb 10th 2006, 8:43am Possible? Sure it is. Unfortunately it doesn't belong in the game in any way. Homo or Heterosexual.
That is really stupid logic considering the game is comprised of alot of heterosexuality. Talking about it is different manner and there is NOTHING wrong in doing so.
How did the GM go too far, exactly? It's called policy.
He warned and ban those who were having friendly chat related to sexual orientation and gender identity that was not insulting or negative. THATs going to far.
-mellian
Mellian Feb 10th 2006, 8:47am Other players don't need to know this.
Not really Blizzard's call to judge what one should know or not. Only thing theyu should do is prevent flaming, insults, spamming and such by banning those that do so, not those that tend to be targetted which is only stupid logic.
-mellian
Silver Paladin Feb 10th 2006, 10:49am Not really Blizzard's call to judge what one should know or not. Only thing theyu should do is prevent flaming, insults, spamming and such by banning those that do so, not those that tend to be targetted which is only stupid logic.
-mellian
It is their call to judge, because they are a private corporation and the acts are happening on the servers they own and the service they provide.
For example, a while back, Blizzard removed the item "Maine Coon" presumably, because it was making fun of hillbillies (not sure if that's the case, but that's what the community thinks). So obviously race (or even specific sections of race) isn't something Blizzard wants in their game. And it seems like Sexual Orientation is something they don't want either.
AeolusHarjo Feb 10th 2006, 2:39pm Actually being gay is illegal (at least if you really sleep with other men) techniclly in some areas but even beyond that stuff like bondage, tentacle porn, or furries aren’t illegal, but any guild based around those would get smacked down SO fast it’s not even funny, but whatever just another gay (pun intended) double standard.
Anyway what I really don’t like about people like this is that they have to run around loudly announcing their sexual preferences seemingly just because. Nor do I like that gays seem to be rewarded for doing so. STFU keep it in your pants and in the bedroom twats I don’t fucking care and I don’t want to hear about how you like the buttsecks while I’m playing an RPG and slicing the heads off of orcs. I just don't get why they always need to this I don't feel the need to proclaim my love of being straight in online games so why do these guys need to proclaim their love of being gay constantly. If they where secure in it they'd just do it and not take even the slightest opportunity to point out they’re gay.
Funny if a straight man mentions his girlfriend or wife or holds her hand in public thats ok. But if a gay man mentions his boyfriend or heaven forbit hold his hand in public all of a sudden he is loudly announcing his sexual preference. The whole issue in WOW was over someone simply asking if anyone wanted to join a GLBT friendy (not only) guild. And got a warning. Other off topic guilds are permited including "family friendly" christian guilds. So whats wrong with a gay friendly one?
Silver Paladin Feb 10th 2006, 3:22pm Funny if a straight man mentions his girlfriend or wife or holds her hand in public thats ok. But if a gay man mentions his boyfriend or heaven forbit hold his hand in public all of a sudden he is loudly announcing his sexual preference. The whole issue in WOW was over someone simply asking if anyone wanted to join a GLBT friendy (not only) guild. And got a warning. Other off topic guilds are permited including "family friendly" christian guilds. So whats wrong with a gay friendly one?
Your first example is a RL example. While that may be useful as social commentary, that really has nothing to do with Blizzard's example.
Now, if someone was advertising for a "Straight Friendly" guild, I think the GMs should take action as well. In fact, I know for a fact that they have deleted posts in the forums that wanted people for a "straight friendly" guild. Either that, or the post magically disspeared when I clicked on "page 2" of the post.
I have no problems with family friendly guilds. Does it bother you? I know if I had kids, I wouldn't want them to hear the F-bomb being dropped, so I think a family friendly guild would be good.
As far as a religious guild, I think it is inappropriate as well. Feel free to /ticket.
AeolusHarjo Feb 10th 2006, 3:33pm It is their call to judge, because they are a private corporation and the acts are happening on the servers they own and the service they provide.
For example, a while back, Blizzard removed the item "Maine Coon" presumably, because it was making fun of hillbillies (not sure if that's the case, but that's what the community thinks). So obviously race (or even specific sections of race) isn't something Blizzard wants in their game. And it seems like Sexual Orientation is something they don't want either.
Except that sexual orientation is already in the game.
AeolusHarjo Feb 10th 2006, 3:39pm Your first example is a RL example. While that may be useful as social commentary, that really has nothing to do with Blizzard's example.
Now, if someone was advertising for a "Straight Friendly" guild, I think the GMs should take action as well. In fact, I know for a fact that they have deleted posts in the forums that wanted people for a "straight friendly" guild. Either that, or the post magically disspeared when I clicked on "page 2" of the post.
I have no problems with family friendly guilds. Does it bother you? I know if I had kids, I wouldn't want them to hear the F-bomb being dropped, so I think a family friendly guild would be good.
As far as a religious guild, I think it is inappropriate as well. Feel free to /ticket.
The whole point to the gay friendly guild was to try and limit exposure to the never ending anti gay insults that go on thier. In most guild chats let alone general chat it's almost non stop. By creating a guild where that is not allowed and then turning off general chat you can avoid most of that. Then if you only group with friends and fellow guild mates you can avoid it almost completely. The idea was to create a non confrontational solution to the problem. If you can create a guild that lets kids avoid hearing all the b-net kiddies cursing then why cant you create a guild that lets its members be free from all the stupid fag, thats gay, queer insults?
Bishop Gantry Feb 10th 2006, 4:06pm The whole point to the gay friendly guild was to try and limit exposure to the never ending anti gay insults that go on thier. In most guild chats let alone general chat it's almost non stop. By creating a guild where that is not allowed and then turning off general chat you can avoid most of that. Then if you only group with friends and fellow guild mates you can avoid it almost completely. The idea was to create a non confrontational solution to the problem. If you can create a guild that lets kids avoid hearing all the b-net kiddies cursing then why cant you create a guild that lets its members be free from all the stupid fag, thats gay, queer insults?
Then report them for improper behaviour, ghater evidence if nescerry...
How exactly is it creating a non confrontional solution when Gay and Lesbian is singled out in every regard?
a Straight only guild is just as offensive by taking a no issue and making it the only issue...
AeolusHarjo Feb 10th 2006, 4:09pm Then report them for improper behaviour, ghater evidence if nescerry...
How exactly is it creating a non confrontional solution when Gay and Lesbian is singled out in every regard?
a Straight only guild is just as offensive by taking a no issue and making it the only issue...
It was not a gay only guild it was gay friendly. It was non confrontational because it did not involve reporting (which rarely works) or yelling at the other players. All it was was a person asking "does anyone want to join a glbt friendly guild. How is that in anyway confrontational?
Bishop Gantry Feb 10th 2006, 4:16pm It was not a gay only guild it was gay friendly. It was non confrontational because it did not involve reporting (which rarely works) or yelling at the other players. All it was was a person asking "does anyone want to join a glbt friendly guild. How is that in anyway confrontational?
By making a non issue the main issue...
AeolusHarjo Feb 10th 2006, 4:27pm By making a non issue the main issue...
It's NOT a non issue. You cant go 5 minutes in WOW without hearing anti gay insults. Reporting does no good. You could report people till your fingers were numb and it wouldn't change a thing.
It was a completely non confrontational solution. Sure alot of people would prefer a confrontational solution but this particular person just wanted to play in a guild where they did not have to hear all the gay bashing in guild chat and they would not have to play the pronoun game if a discussion turned to personal lives.
Bishop Gantry Feb 10th 2006, 4:57pm It's NOT a non issue. You cant go 5 minutes in WOW without hearing anti gay insults. Reporting does no good. You could report people till your fingers were numb and it wouldn't change a thing.
It was a completely non confrontational solution. Sure alot of people would prefer a confrontational solution but this particular person just wanted to play in a guild where they did not have to hear all the gay bashing in guild chat and they would not have to play the pronoun game if a discussion turned to personal lives.
Blizz seemed to discover the friendly gay guild just fine, or is that they expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter, because they are opressed minority?...
they have instant messenger for that and thats for everyone that wants to discuss their personal life...
AeolusHarjo Feb 10th 2006, 5:51pm Blizz seemed to discover the friendly gay guild just fine, or is that they expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter, because they are opressed minority?...
they have instant messenger for that and thats for everyone that wants to discuss their personal life...
So are you saying that no one should ever talk off topic in WOW? If so I could agree with you at least on roleplay servers. On non roleplay servers if straights get to talk off topic about thier personal lives I dont see how you have a leg to stand on.
Greyhame Feb 10th 2006, 8:11pm It was not a gay only guild it was gay friendly. It was non confrontational because it did not involve reporting (which rarely works) or yelling at the other players. All it was was a person asking "does anyone want to join a glbt friendly guild. How is that in anyway confrontational?
And I'm sure if someone said "Does anyone want to join a strait friendly guild?" the same thing would happen.
TK99 Feb 10th 2006, 8:38pm The real problem for WoW is that racism in general is rampant especially against Asians, as in Chinese farmers which are both despised yet constantly used.
I think blizzard is just trying to avoid more discrimination, because now that this has happened the far right will sue WoW for allow any sexual reference,
In the end WoW will be victim of its own success, then the Japanese will start playing.
On a side note during one of the lagger days in Org I spamed in the Trade channel that I had boy for sale. I had picked him up in a raid in Stormwind, but all he does is cry eat and poo. I got few offers I then spamed that he was purchased by Mr. M Jackson. Never got so much as a blink from a GM.
Bishop Gantry Feb 11th 2006, 3:07am So are you saying that no one should ever talk off topic in WOW? If so I could agree with you at least on roleplay servers. On non roleplay servers if straights get to talk off topic about thier personal lives I dont see how you have a leg to stand on. Im not particulary intrested in listening to anyones personal life while gaming wether they be gay, straight etc...
|
|
|
|
|
TOP
