So upscaling players are a bit of a waste then?

just wot i was about to ask. I still wanna get a better dvd player for my new lcd but dont want it to mess up with the lcd.

I use my Denon 1920 to upscale to 720P and the picture quality is just amazing! in my eyes the DVD is upscaling the image - and the TV (Hitachi42PD7200) is showing it as it receives it. Now the Denon can output 1080i - but i don't use this as I can't see the point of the DVD player upscaling the image to that res, and the TV then then reducing it to a size it can diplay!
it is the same with the xbox 360 - it is set to output 720P as opposed to 1080i - with the same school of thought applied - Why set to a higher level that then has to be reduced to fit properly?

I may well have this all completly wrong and shown myself to be an arse!

but you're happy so that's what counts :)

This is the sort of question that presses home the need to test any combination of kit before purchase! Sometimes scaling may help, others it may hinder. Only trying kit together can give you the answer you require, and that may be different for another person.

Good thread!

I can tell you, A LOT of my mates (including me) hit this brick wall of AV understanding!

I am about to set up my projector, having bought it over a year ago and am thinking: "why bother with an upscaling amp or dvd when the projector (screenplay 5700) will do it for me?" Probably better!

Yep, I know, my proj can only output 576p/i and not 720p, but that'll do for me for the meantime methinks!

ps. while I'm here, could someone just confirm that whatever I feed my proj directly will be output at 576p. Sky+ DVD, xbox 360 (downscale?).

Thanks Guys! :)

yes, the proj' will scale the image to its native resolution, whatever you feed it. IMHO upscaling players are a gimick full stop, unless you have an expensive one with a dogs ******** scaler and feed the screen at its exact native res. Even then no one can be sure that the set isn't runing it through its scaler, i would assume that it doesn't if the feed is, as i said, matched exactly.

I've just tried me C/A DVD89 player through a mate's Hitachi 42" plasma, and over HDMI it looks absolutely stunning! Quite frankly, the only difference I could see when upscaling, was a VERY slightly sharper image over 1080i, but not really enough to say it was worth using 1080i.
I then hooked the player up to my system, and over component, the image lacked "richness" of colour I suppose, but still very good, and the screen was upscaling anyway to 1366 x 768 (my original philips that is).
So my conclusion is this:
If your screen upscales well, don't bother trying to use the player to upscale as well, leave the signal path alone as much as possible, and buy components that compliment each other (as was previously stated).
I know its in enthusiast's nature to fiddle and see how good they get their systems running and looking, so a lot of ppl spend time end energy chasing that extra bit, but I honestly feel its not really worth it going by my conclusion.
Thats not to say don't fiddle and tweak:grin: , we all like to, but I think ppl put too much stock in this upscaling (unless doing it suits your system config).
This is what I reckon but its only my opinion btw.

Good thread!

I can tell you, A LOT of my mates (including me) hit this brick wall of AV understanding!

I am about to set up my projector, having bought it over a year ago and am thinking: "why bother with an upscaling amp or dvd when the projector (screenplay 5700) will do it for me?" Probably better!

Yep, I know, my proj can only output 576p/i and not 720p, but that'll do for me for the meantime methinks!

ps. while I'm here, could someone just confirm that whatever I feed my proj directly will be output at 576p. Sky+ DVD, xbox 360 (downscale?).

Thanks Guys! :)

anything you feed the projector thats progressive will come out at 576p, Sky however isnt progressive, its interlaced, so it will be 576i......dont think the 5700 has any way to make it progressive....i know my 7205 Infocus always shows Sky as 576i......likewise if i feed the projector a DVD signal via s-video.......if i feed it via component tho i can obviously have 576p from the DVD player.........or if i use HDMI/DVI then my DVD player (3910) can upscale to 720p or 1080i...sometimes the player did a better job than the projector.....sadly my HDMI cable got knackered so i'm on component only now....dont mind, wasnt much difference between the two tbh, some films looked better by one, some better by the other..lol

So so long as i use HDMI i can upscale to 720p which will be better than my 576p now?

depends, if your display is native 720 resolution then its worth doing.....if your display isnt native 720 then its better to let the display do the scaling (assuming it has a scaler obviously)....also better to let the display do the scaling in the first place if its scaling chip is better than the one in the DVD player....

mind you, sometimes scalers, whether in the DVD player or the display are not much cop anyhow, and can make a dogs dinner of things...lol.....sometimes a dedicated scaler is better to use.....

if your display is 576 or lower resolution, definitely not worth upscaling in the DVD player as it will simply be downscaled and this will most likely introduce artifacts that are not good...

anything you feed the projector thats progressive will come out at 576p, Sky however isnt progressive, its interlaced, so it will be 576i......dont think the 5700 has any way to make it progressive....i know my 7205 Infocus always shows Sky as 576i......likewise if i feed the projector a DVD signal via s-video.......if i feed it via component tho i can obviously have 576p from the DVD player.........or if i use HDMI/DVI then my DVD player (3910) can upscale to 720p or 1080i...sometimes the player did a better job than the projector.....sadly my HDMI cable got knackered so i'm on component only now....dont mind, wasnt much difference between the two tbh, some films looked better by one, some better by the other..lol
I am afraid you are wrong in this description. All, repeat all DLP and LCD projectors display progressively. They have to and have no other choice but to. The 576i your 7205 displays with Sky refers to the incoming signal, not the output signal. If you set your DVD player to interlaced then again the 7205 will display 576i (assuming it's a PAL DVD). set the player to progressive and then the 7205 will say 576p.
Although the projector has to display progressively, which piece of hardware does that de-interlacing is up to you. But it will only be done once.
That is why it is better sometimes to let the display do it ( as in the fantastic Faroudja de-interlacer/progressive scanner in the 7205) and sometimes let the player do it if the player has a better one.
So if you have a 720p DLP projector, then all incoming signals will be displayed at 720p ( native resolution, progressively) sometimes the projector will do the progressive duty ( as in 1080i and 576i Sky) and sometimes the source will do it (as in 720p Sky HD).
With regards to the initial question, the only answer is suck it and see!!.. Some upscaling DVD players can do a better job than the display, some can't. But I have found that a DVD player set to upscale to 1080i usually produces a smoother (not softer) image with less noise than sent at 576p

Yeah - there's very little in it, but my Panasonic S97 gives very slightly smoother diagonal lines when upscaling to 720p compared to 480p video.

Also, remember that some displays have the annoying habit of edge enhancing 480p video but leaving what it thinks is HDTV largely alone.

yes, the proj' will scale the image to its native resolution, whatever you feed it. IMHO upscaling players are a gimick full stop, unless you have an expensive one with a dogs ******** scaler and feed the screen at its exact native res. Even then no one can be sure that the set isn't runing it through its scaler, i would assume that it doesn't if the feed is, as i said, matched exactly.


I have a panasonic th37px60 and denon dvd1920. The panel has a resolution of 1024x720, and feeding it with a 720p upscaled image from the Denon definitely gives a slightly sharper image. There is more edge definition, especially in complex areas of the picture.

Again, milage may vary with different kit, so always try first. But it can't be dismissed as 'a gimmick, full stop'.

Matt. :)

Do you mean the picture's sharper (edge enhanced) or has more detail? I'd be worried if it was the former.

Do you mean the picture's sharper (edge enhanced) or has more detail? I'd be worried if it was the former.

It doesn't look like it's just been sharpened, if that's what you mean.

I'm sure you're aware that there are may ways of scaling an image.

To double the size of a video frame (4x the pixels), you could could just take every pixel and turn it into 4 pixels.

Or you could take all the original pixels and fill the new 'spaces' ith the average of the 2 surrounding pixels.

Or you could calculate the new pixels by taking into account may samples around the gap you wish to fill. Is that pixel part of a constant gradient? Is it at a colour boundary? What's happening in the next frame? etc.

Different scalers obviously put different weight to different parameters. And the depending on processing power, scalers can take more parameters into account.

Obviously there's no scaler that can create detail that wasn't there in the first place, as it can only make best guess as to what the interpolated pixels are. But IMHO the picture scaled by my Denon looks better than the picture scaled by the tv. And im my opinion, this is because the scaler does a better job of retaining edge detail.

Matt. :)

I use my Denon 1920 to upscale to 720P and the picture quality is just amazing! in my eyes the DVD is upscaling the image - and the TV (Hitachi42PD7200) is showing it as it receives it. Now the Denon can output 1080i - but i don't use this as I can't see the point of the DVD player upscaling the image to that res, and the TV then then reducing it to a size it can diplay!
it is the same with the xbox 360 - it is set to output 720P as opposed to 1080i - with the same school of thought applied - Why set to a higher level that then has to be reduced to fit properly?

I may well have this all completly wrong and shown myself to be an arse!
actually with the ALIS hitachi screens your much better off with 1080i than 720p........

And yes the OP is correct unless the DVD player can do a better job of it, your better leaving it to the screen (there are certain exceptions for various reasons)

All I know is i've set up my Toshiba SD330E via component and the Oppo via DVI/HDMI and now i've had a little more time to tinker I can honestly say the Oppo delivers a richer and sharper picture, (720p/1080i), through my PD7200 and once you look at specific areas of certain scenes using the same dvd there is a superior pic' when using the Oppo.....whether that's the connection used or the fact that the Toshiba may be 'old hat/crap' I don't know. I am confident that the Oppo gives a better pic' and that's pretty much all i'm worried about....very smooth to operate too, re: layer change, menus etc. Some dvd's however can look stunning on the Toshiba!:rolleyes:

yes, the proj' will scale the image to its native resolution, whatever you feed it. IMHO upscaling players are a gimick full stop, unless you have an expensive one with a dogs ******** scaler and feed the screen at its exact native res. Even then no one can be sure that the set isn't runing it through its scaler, i would assume that it doesn't if the feed is, as i said, matched exactly.

I find it ironic that we see scaling players after the age of CRT, when it could have really helped with eliminating scan lines, etc. Now, we have fixed-pixel devices which scale to the native resolution regardless, and unless one is using a true scaler for 1:1 pixel mapping, the set is playing with the signal again anyway...

I endorse players with HDMI, just to get the pure digital feed from the source to the display. Whether you need to upscale from 480i/p to something else is up to your eyes, I suppose.

I got a Sony NS76H today for my Panny TH37PX and too be honest I was a bit sceptical that the HDMI output would make any real difference compared to the panel's own scaler.

However comparing outputs the HDMI looks better when examined casually. Careful examination definately reveals a sharper/cleaner picture - since my eyesight is pretty poor it must be doing a good job.

I did find however that even though the panel is a native 720 that 1080i looks better than 720p

This is a topic that comes up over and over again lately and there is one camp that says any cheap players that upscale are crap and that's the end of it.
The most important thing to check is whether or not your display does a better job than your player. I have a sanyo Z3 projector and I am using a samsung hd 850 to upscale to 720p which is the pj's native res, I have tried loads of tests using 480p, 576p, 720p and 1080i.
Now bearing in mind that setting the dvd player to 720p is the only resolution that bypasses the panels own scaler the picture is dramatically better set to 720p, so much so that I set it to 576p the other night and without saying a word to my wife she walked in and said I don't know what you've done to the picture but it looks rubbish so turn it back!
I daresay that if your panel is say 768p native instead of 720p then it is going to be kind of pointless as there is 2 lots of scaling going on but I don't think it is an accurate statement to just write off upscaling players without looking at individual set ups.

Rant over!

But it can't be dismissed as 'a gimmick, full stop'.

Matt. :)[/QUOTE]

Oh yes it can, and can i interest you in purchasing my nan's wedding ring, it cures styes on your eyes when rubbed against them....:devil:

I got a Sony NS76H today for my Panny TH37PX and too be honest I was a bit sceptical that the HDMI output would make any real difference compared to the panel's own scaler.

However comparing outputs the HDMI looks better when examined casually. Careful examination definately reveals a sharper/cleaner picture - since my eyesight is pretty poor it must be doing a good job.

I did find however that even though the panel is a native 720 that 1080i looks better than 720p

It might just be that the HDMI signal is better than what you were using previoulsy. I don't think many will disagree that HDMI is a better output on most budget players than the component or RGB scart. Scaling is a different kettle of fish and until I get my 10m HDMI cable I can't comment.

I think the information at Oppo Digital is quite informative

See their more info (http://www.oppodigital.com/opdv971h_moreinfo.html)page and their white paper (http://www.oppodigital.com/Getting-Most-out-of-DVD-on-HDTV-Display.html) for a discussion on upscaling, and other video processing such as deinterlacing.

This is a useful explanation for anyone not familiar with it of why more expensive DVD players can do a better job of DVD playback.

I have a panasonic th37px60 and denon dvd1920. The panel has a resolution of 1024x720, and feeding it with a 720p upscaled image from the Denon definitely gives a slightly sharper image. There is more edge definition, especially in complex areas of the picture.

Again, milage may vary with different kit, so always try first. But it can't be dismissed as 'a gimmick, full stop'.

Matt. :)

Any lip sync issues with this combination? Do you run the audio through the screen or A/V reciever, if reciever which one and do you use audio delay?

Thanks

Any lip sync issues with this combination? Do you run the audio through the screen or A/V reciever, if reciever which one and do you use audio delay?

Thanks

As I said in the Denon firmware thread:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2950170&postcount=73

I haven't had any problems apart from the David Gilmour concert DVD, but that's now fixed after updating with the 1.24 firmware.

I play audio through a Yamaha RXV-800, which has no audio delay feature.

Regards,

Matt.